tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post5792151427429407347..comments2024-02-10T01:46:32.327-08:00Comments on Reading and Writing are Fattening: How Many Characters Are Too Many?Marla Mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-36040367036249286702013-07-15T10:43:24.874-07:002013-07-15T10:43:24.874-07:00That's because you were reading a piece with a...That's because you were reading a piece with an omniscient POV. I sometimes think the frenzy to NOT have a changing POV is to dumb down the writing to sell to the masses. Different genres have different reading levels on the Flesch-Kincaid scale (http://www.standards-schmandards.com/exhibits/rix/), but seldom does the grade level exceed 10th grade and 7th to 9th grade reading levels are considered "ideal" and that I find disturbing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-33649761959734947902013-07-10T14:49:21.059-07:002013-07-10T14:49:21.059-07:00HI,
Yes, doing a POV change within a scene is alwa...HI,<br />Yes, doing a POV change within a scene is always described as a big no-no, but I've come across books in which the author did do some of that but within a dialogue sequence. When I'm reading, I don't have a problem with it if it is done well.<br />Good luck with the editing, it's a tough job.<br />MarlaMarla Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-26994147346488702942013-07-10T14:47:13.057-07:002013-07-10T14:47:13.057-07:00Yes, you're right about orchestration. I'v...Yes, you're right about orchestration. I've had some complaints about having too many characters, but I write suspense, and that kind of comes with the territory. I"ve gotten better at keeping them distinct.<br />Thanks for your comment'<br />MarlaMarla Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-52562626962462289542013-07-09T14:42:55.139-07:002013-07-09T14:42:55.139-07:00The whole POV changes within a scene amuses me. To...The whole POV changes within a scene amuses me. Too many modern writers say that omniscient POV means sticking to one character but that is LIMITED omniscient writing. Full omniscience routinely head hops and such is prevalent in English and American literature. Whenever I hire an editor, I ask (1) "Do you have a degree in English (composition and literature)?" and (2) "Define omniscience." If the answer to #1 is "no" they lost the job. If one is a "yes" then they usually get omniscience correct. I edit for others but not for myself for obvious reason.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-83163656151966756502013-07-09T14:34:39.914-07:002013-07-09T14:34:39.914-07:00My first piece was an ensemble cast, BUT two of th...My first piece was an ensemble cast, BUT two of the ensemble of 6 took precedence over the other 4. The 4 helped the 2 with their conflict. The 4 were also rarely simultaneously present with the 2. It's all about orchestration.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-85992285699840655812013-07-02T09:40:49.247-07:002013-07-02T09:40:49.247-07:00Hi Mardra,
Keep up the fight! I tried to narrow do...Hi Mardra,<br />Keep up the fight! I tried to narrow down my characters in book 2 because my first book had gotten complaints I had too many. But I'm getting reviews of the second book still saying I have too many!<br />I write suspense and read suspense. I'm afraid a good suspense book DOES have a lot of characters.<br />The trick is to keep them distinguishable and it sounds like you're doing that.<br />So happy you liked my post. Keep writing and have a great holiday weekend,<br />MarlaMarla Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-61266318330812479192013-07-01T09:39:42.244-07:002013-07-01T09:39:42.244-07:00Yes, I am fighting for my characters right now. T...Yes, I am fighting for my characters right now. They are all important to the story and, more importantly, to the theme. I am trying, now, to go in and further "paint" the physical details of each character in the hopes this will help people to keep them clear and separate in their mind's eye as they read. <br />One last go and it's time to move on to book two. Thanks for the tips :)<br />Mardrahttp://www.mardrasikora.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-32974097722411549732013-06-07T13:53:24.188-07:002013-06-07T13:53:24.188-07:00Hi Kathryn,
I'd never be confusing on purpose....Hi Kathryn,<br />I'd never be confusing on purpose. LOL<br />My writer's group cites me for names that are too similar, so I always change them. I hate that as a reader, it is confusing. <br />Also, I write suspense, so it helps to have a lot of characters, which makes it even more important to make sure they are well differentiated.<br />Good luck with your writing!<br />Thanks for stopping by,<br />MarlaMarla Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-5057283723765506662013-06-07T13:38:31.930-07:002013-06-07T13:38:31.930-07:00I am battling with this issue right now as I work ...I am battling with this issue right now as I work on my latest novel. But you cited what should be an unbreakable rule (unless you are trying to be confusing on purpose) about making sure character names aren't too similar. People tend to read faster in high action or suspense scenes and might get confused if names look a lot alike. In an older manuscript of mine that I thought about resuscitating, I had a hero named Michael and a villain named Maxwell. After not having looked at it for a number of years, I was reading a scene where the two engaged in hand-to-had combat, and even I got lost.Kathryn Flatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16715696643958200421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-20968585678494055132013-06-03T18:19:59.298-07:002013-06-03T18:19:59.298-07:00Hi Daphne,
I agree. Too many characters all at onc...Hi Daphne,<br />I agree. Too many characters all at once can turn off readers. It's hard to do mutltiple characters or POV changes effectively. I think POV changes work best if they are separate chapters, or at the very least, separate scenes.<br />Although I've noticed lately, that some authors will do small POV changes when doing dialogue, especially romantic scenes. Again, it takes skill to do it effectively.<br />Thanks for your comment!<br />Have a nice week,<br />MarlaMarla Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-86466848534403019422013-06-03T08:35:20.776-07:002013-06-03T08:35:20.776-07:00If there are more than five or six named character...If there are more than five or six named characters in the first thirty pages, I'm done reading. My view is that introducing a flow of characters is no different than a film director adding long scenes of driving, walking or endless chases. It's filler, a way to take up film time without having to dream up interesting dialogue. Multiple characters in a novel is either distracting page filler or a cheap way to add red herrings or clues to a mystery novel. In Christie's Poirot, or Conan Doyle's Sherlock, there were never gaggles of characters. Those are the gold standard in my view.<br />POV changes are annoying. If absolutely necessary, they must be crystal clear, carefully crafted, essential to the story and minimally employed.<br />Daphnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01227036084565225197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-31863503818136399292013-05-12T19:50:27.307-07:002013-05-12T19:50:27.307-07:00Hi Belinda,
It's hard cutting characters. Luck...Hi Belinda,<br />It's hard cutting characters. Luckily, I only had to do that in my first novel! LOL Good advice from your readers. Thanks for sharing their tips, they're good ones.<br />Ha ha! I've had the over-population problem, too. I'm on my third novel now, and am getting better about keeping them checked. I'm only doing POV changes by chapter now and very seldom, if ever, by scene, which I did quite liberally in novel one, She's Not There. We learn as we go, don't we?<br />Thanks for stopping by and for your excellent contribution to the subject,<br />MarlaMarla Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-82363975670568369332013-05-12T19:46:18.086-07:002013-05-12T19:46:18.086-07:00Hi NOrdlys,
Interesting sounding characters! Are t...Hi NOrdlys,<br />Interesting sounding characters! Are they brothers? Yeah, it's tricky to introduce three at once, but sometimes we have to. Ten characters is pretty manageable. Sounds like you're doing a great job<br />with them!<br />Thanks for commenting. Have a nice week,<br />MarlaMarla Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-49071701807458663942013-05-12T17:34:11.806-07:002013-05-12T17:34:11.806-07:00Good topic, Marla, and I like your tips. I've ...Good topic, Marla, and I like your tips. I've had to cull characters from my first novel. And I've kept more than some people think I should, because the story just really needs them. I thought long and hard and couldn't see another way to achieve the plot goals. <br /><br />These are some useful tips I got from beta readers and evaluators:<br />-- introduce all the POV characters as early as possible<br />-- if a character is only there briefly, to facilitate the plot at some point, don't give them a name<br /><br />I have POV changes at scene changes, not just chapter changes, although in the sequel I think I'd like to be able to keep it mostly to chapter changes. I do try to weave the character's name into the first sentence of the scene, in a way that makes it clear whose POV we are now in.<br /><br />It's been a nightmare trying to resolve my over-population! My sequel will have far fewer characters. At least to start with. Who knows how they'll multiply as I write! ;-)<br /><br />Belinda Pollardhttp://www.smallbluedog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-88467462455457216912013-05-12T10:42:19.986-07:002013-05-12T10:42:19.986-07:00I had this problem, now I use few characters (abou...I had this problem, now I use few characters (about 10, sometimes less).<br /><br />Point 1 - Two of my characters are named Brian and Bjørn. I don't change their names and nobody seems to care about that.<br />2 - Often I introduce one character a time, but I had to introduce 3 togheter because their problem start from the same thing.<br />3 - Sometimes is necessary, but usually I don't.<br />4 - My problem is the opposite in this case.<br />5 - Already done.AliceNorthernLightshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04462871511541914849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-24839561914324337242013-05-03T07:35:41.795-07:002013-05-03T07:35:41.795-07:00Hi Donnell,
So nice to hear from you! I agree. Sus...Hi Donnell,<br />So nice to hear from you! I agree. Suspense needs a full cast of characters. I think my problem in novel one was just having too many POV characters. And I had about four main characters. Some people complained about that in reviews, but then we can't please every reader. Hard lesson to learn for us writers. I have to keep remembering John Locke's advice--you only need to please your target audience!<br />Thanks for stopping in,<br />MarlaMarla Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-22505152148403818612013-05-03T07:28:49.648-07:002013-05-03T07:28:49.648-07:00Good morning, Marla. I like a cast full of rich c...Good morning, Marla. I like a cast full of rich characters. I also write supsense, and it's hard to find a culprit with only two suspects. Your advice is spot on. Make their names different enough and the characters' unique. As for critique groups, Shakespeare said it best, "To Thine Own Self be True." Donnell Ann Bellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07943037206984648849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-13966812153025942862013-05-02T04:49:09.898-07:002013-05-02T04:49:09.898-07:00HI Scott,
I think maybe that's where I go wron...HI Scott,<br />I think maybe that's where I go wrong, as I do POV switches in chapters, but do use scene breaks. I'm writing my third now and trying to do only one a chapter also.<br />Thanks for telling us about that!<br />I'm snowed in today, believe it or not! So no excuse for not getting some writing done. LOL<br />Have a great weekend,<br />MarlaMarla Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-64336162489657415872013-04-30T14:25:44.368-07:002013-04-30T14:25:44.368-07:00Game of Thrones was mentioned and World War Z is a...Game of Thrones was mentioned and World War Z is another big mass appeal book getting a lot of attention now. One has an HBO series and the other an upcoming Brad Pitt movie and both have dozens of characters. They both use one of your tricks: one Character POV per chapter only. Another thing about both of them that stands out though is that the world and it's events are the focus of the storyline, not one persons personal story. I think that is key.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14439394372232616260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-41195726208169389832013-04-30T10:42:35.065-07:002013-04-30T10:42:35.065-07:00Hi Tanya,
I like to do POV from more than just the...Hi Tanya,<br />I like to do POV from more than just the main characters,too. I guess if that's our writing style, and we want to maintain it, we need to work on all the ways to keep each character memorable. I'm considering having a character index at the back of my third novel, but haven't decided yet. <br />Thanks, glad you found it helpful. Nice to meet your here,<br />MarlaMarla Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-49067459566237997702013-04-30T07:53:58.911-07:002013-04-30T07:53:58.911-07:00My first editor said the same thing! I name my pro...My first editor said the same thing! I name my protagonists (of course) and my secondary characters who are needed to drive the plot. I round out my secondary characters and give them their point of view in certain chapters so that my readers can identify with them. I've changed names in the past when I noticed (or it was brought to my attention)that they were "similar sounding". Marla, I like your tips. Great post!Tanya Goodwinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18241512421768877764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-999356892297844162013-04-24T16:28:08.742-07:002013-04-24T16:28:08.742-07:00Hi Claudia,
So nice to hear from you! I agree, som...Hi Claudia,<br />So nice to hear from you! I agree, some books are just worth it. It's hard to do suspense without a lot of characters, and hopefully, I'm becoming better at handling them. My writer's group keeps telling my how important it is to remind the reader who they are when they don't appear very often.<br />I used the "Dragon Tattoo" series as an example because no matter how frustrating all those names were,<br />I stuck with them because they, and the book, were so engaging.<br />Best wishes for your writing,<br />Marla<br />Marla Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-61630685338574744292013-04-24T14:24:23.254-07:002013-04-24T14:24:23.254-07:00I like a large cast of characters, and I even like...I like a large cast of characters, and I even like it when characters speak over themselves in scenes. I think as a writer you have to decide who your audience is -- a group that wants a quick, simple read, or an audience that is willing to invest time in you. Not everybody is prepared to read Jodi Picoult, but those that do find it rewarding. It may mean that you have to build simple payoffs to create that trust so that you can sneak in more complexity in terms of number of characters and/or sub-plots. Paranormal writer JR Ward introduced a major character in the first chapter, then killed him off, and he wasn't seen again. Still audience members remember that character strongly -- out of all of the Black Dagger Brotherhood. Look at George Martin & Game of Thrones with a huge cast of very entertaining characters. Or the Harry Potter series. Or Diana Gabaldon's Outlander Series.<br /><br />For me, this type of writing requires careful plotting (not pantzing), with character bibles that contain more than just their favorite color. I've got to be able to see the cues about these characters building to a climax even if separated by many chapters. I'm not saying I know how to do it well, but I"m sure studying those writers who make it their specialty.<br /><br />I think there are great rewards for a writer in doing a large cast of characters, but your success will depend upon your writerly skills, your ability to make each one memorable. I'm holding off on diving into my Game of Thrones-like magnum opus until I have built those writerly skills! (grins)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04445250635088830552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-854228316579075942013-04-23T06:54:54.067-07:002013-04-23T06:54:54.067-07:00Four characters! That is really compact. I find it...Four characters! That is really compact. I find it hard to keep characters to a minimum. Seems like for<br />a mystery of suspense to have a lot of twists and turns, you need more. <br />That's a nice way to do it, with each character having their own chapters. Jodi Picoult does that and it<br />is a nice style to read.<br />Thanks for visiting,<br />MarlaMarla Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04004295584548524776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1438850631282274504.post-11633644188817347502013-04-22T11:00:33.823-07:002013-04-22T11:00:33.823-07:00Hi Marla,
Writer Dave is first again!!!
My ebook W...Hi Marla,<br />Writer Dave is first again!!!<br />My ebook Web of Guilt has four characters. I wrote it with each character having a chapter of 1st Person POV for each of them alternating. It seems to have worked. There is no problem keeping track of the characters! Once the book has five of more characters, I find I struggle to keep up with them without going back and checking.Dave Wisehttp://www.writerdave.comnoreply@blogger.com